Mark Anthony Dyson, Author at The Voice of Job Seekers

Good Comes First with Mark S. Babbitt (Transcript)

This transcript was produced in conjunction with my conversation with Mark Babbitt. You can listen to the show or read this transcript of our recorded conversation. He refers to his Chris Edmonds, his co-author, as they refer to their mission in this book:

“And I, this book came about because me and my co-author became more and more frustrated that we were sending people out into the job market. Only to have them become disappointed and frustrated and, and they just couldn’t find the right, the right culture for them.”

[00:00:00] Mark Anthony Dyson: Next on the show is my man Mark Babbitt. We are long-time friends, at least. More than a decade at this particular point, right. We’ve worked together multiple times. So if we have a very intimate discussion, you guys don’t know what we’re talking about is because we have a lot of history, between talking about our families and what’s going on in our lives professionally.

[00:00:33] Mark S Babbitt: What’s going on in the job, search, how I’m doing very well. Let’s hope that well, let’s be intimate, but let’s also be relevant. How does that sound?

[00:00:39] Mark Anthony Dyson: Well, we don’t have to talk like it’s 2011. Indeed is now 2021. The jobs, the job search has changed even from two years ago. Which I think the thing.

[00:00:56] What we’re talking about here is your book, Good Comes First, going to be released here in another few weeks. I believe you’re actually, you’re closer to the October time, right? As opposed to the 1st of September. So we have a little time to put that. Would it be out that first week in October on podcasts, but people have access right now.

[00:01:21] And we are streaming in case you’re wondering what I’m doing streaming to LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook. And later on, it would be upon the, on my YouTube channel. Mark as I’ve written for YouTern back in the day. On several occasions and Mark has been on my podcast several occasions, and we worked in many other different settings as well.

[00:01:44] But all in all, this is the second book that you’ve worked on. If I’m not mistaken, I think there was a book in between there somewhere. I feel like I’m missing, but I think those are the two there’s, two that are on the market right now, where you were really involved. And when I first started the title, I was not surprised that that was you because I think that has been it there’s been a subtitle to everything that you’ve talked about.

[00:02:13] This is it. Good comes first.

[00:02:16] Mark S Babbitt: Well, first of all, thank you. That’s a huge compliment. Mark, you said that the job search has changed in the last two years, maybe even two months, let alone 10, 12 years since you and I’ve been hanging out and talking about this, but I’ll tell you what hasn’t changed.

[00:02:32] Company cultures haven’t changed. And, and I, this book came about because me and my co-author became more and more frustrated that we were sending people out into the job market. Only to have them become disappointed and frustrated and, and they just couldn’t find the right, the right culture for them. And, and so we, we took our experience and said, what, what if we, what if we built company cultures based on the doing of good and not just for your shareholders, but your, your employees and your candidates and, and your interns, and of course your customers and other stakeholders.

[00:03:14] And, and that’s, that’s what brought us to Good Comes First. We, especially, as we climb out of this newest wave of the pandemic want leaders to look at their cultures now and say, what can I, what can I do better? But even more important, perhaps we want job seekers and candidates to look at their careers and say, why would I go to work for a company?

[00:03:40] I know I’ve got to pay the bills, but why would I go to work for a company that I know, sorry, There I can, I can see on Glassdoor, they suck. I can see in the media, they suck. I don’t like the way they treat their customers and their employees on social media. But boy, I need to pay bills. Well, let me just take a step back and see, do I have, do I have any runway there?

[00:04:01] Can I really afford to, to, to hold up for a culture that, that actually fits me? My personality, my, my dreams, my goals my values, and that, so that’s why we wrote good comes first.

[00:04:15] Mark Anthony Dyson: I think as well, is that, that there’s also underlining. I mean, I talk about strategies all the time, but good is a strategy.

[00:04:27] But also happiness is a strategy. Is that people now underlying gear, they want, they want good jobs, but I think ultimately people want to be happy in a good job and they want to be happy with somebody that’s, considering the best treatment of them first, not the one when they fall that there’s going to be this net waiting for them and that’s going to be the good, and it shouldn’t be that way.

[00:05:01] It should be that that’s going to be first, rather than that being last

[00:05:06] Mark S Babbitt: well, mark, you’ve been talking about since I’ve known you what 2009 and, and happiness is a strategy. Good is a strategy. And, and I’ll tell you, you see what’s happening now. Your last guest touched on it. They’re there.

[00:05:24] People are leaving good jobs because they’re not good for them. They’re not good for their souls. They’re, they’re not good for their values. They’re being asked to tell him his truth or to fudge reports or to union and shops being asked to actually slow down their production over.

[00:05:44] We’re doing too much, right? Well, you can’t go home at the end of the day, thinking about that stuff and feeling good. You can’t go home and feel happy about that. And, and that’s what we’re trying to change in. And what we say to the book over and over again is we, we want to build a world where there’s good people doing good work for a good company to work for.

[00:06:06] And that’s our goal is we want happiness. We want good to become a strategy.

[00:06:14] Mark Anthony Dyson: They, there’s an anomaly in a good job. Because it pays and a company that’s not good because the way they treat is, is the thing that needs to be eliminated from our vocabulary and our mindset as well that we have to stick it out and survive.

[00:06:35] If you’re low like our fathers and grandfathers did

[00:06:39] Mark S Babbitt: well, there’s a big part of it, right? This whole generational precedent that, feels like an envelope falling on our head. There’s, there’s almost a guilt that comes with, well, my father was never happy at work.

[00:06:57] He just paid the bills. My mom, just did what she had to do to get by. We don’t, we aren’t supposed to enjoy work. My grandfather sure. Didn’t enjoy work. Well, what times are different. Now, the world is different now and, and people are, they’re voting with their feet. You look at, you look at some of these old school leaders that are insisting that their employees, after being given all this freedom and all this autonomy to work from home to make their own decisions is that their own hours.

[00:07:30] And now these old school leaders are mandating that we’re going to come back in the office and it’s going to go back to the way it used to be. It’s going to go back to normal what the old normal for 90% of the population, there was nothing rewarding about it, except the paycheck. And now, from Wall Street to Pennsylvania Avenue, to Silicon Valley, all these leaders are sticking their necks out and saying, no, none of that matters the last 18 months doesn’t matter.

[00:08:00] The Delta variant doesn’t matter. It’s time to get back to work either, either get back to work or, resign. People are resigning moving on in record numbers. We’ve, we’ve never seen a migration of talented workers, like, like we’re witnessing right now. They’re saying, no, I’m not going to work like that anymore.

[00:08:22] I liked being home for my kids. I like being home from my mom or my dad and providing elderly care. I like being home for my dog or my cat. Right. I liked having more balance and I’m not going to go back to the way it was. I’m not comfortable with that at all. I’m not going to spend three hours on the train just to work seven and a half hours.

[00:08:43] And I’m supposed to be happy about that. No, I’m not going to do that. And, and a good thing for employers because there’s good. There’s a whole bunch of really talented people on the market right now that weren’t just a couple of months ago before the JP Morgans and, and those kinds of companies said fine.

[00:09:00] You’re either going to come back to work. You don’t have a job.

[00:09:05] Mark Anthony Dyson: Well, I think people, when people dig deep, it’s interesting that the intelligence that you can get these days right now on LinkedIn and Glassdoor and all those to find out what the company’s M.O. And why a whole bunch of good people left. And when people see that people like them are leaving, they’re going, that’s a red flat out of flag automatically.

[00:09:27] So at what point leaves so they can contact the person and ask that question. Now, there just were not six degrees of separation anymore. We’re maybe one or two ties that we may be connected. So really the questions that job seekers can ask now are, how’s this company and please tell me the truth.

[00:09:50] And then we can look at the company and see where the red flags are. Ultimately, when we dig a little deeper, you can’t hide pebbles where they’re supposed to go.

[00:10:03] Mark S Babbitt: Well, I remember one of our first conversations mark, you and I talked about the best question a job seeker can ask in a job interview.

[00:10:12] Mark Anthony Dyson: Yes, we did that probably the last time we spoke

[00:10:15] Mark S Babbitt: And the answer to the, our answer that one of our main topics asked why, why is this job open? And, and people still don’t do that very often, unfortunately, but, and you don’t. And sometimes we talk about this, you don’t get an honest answer. You don’t get a direct answer.

[00:10:33] You don’t even get your sure. Don’t get the answer you want to hear. But if the interviewer hears that question and hems and Haws and tries to find just the right words to explain what’s going on, you don’t have to hear the answer now because they don’t want to tell you truth. Right. So on the other hand, let’s just say it, let’s just say it is on, on service, an unpleasant answer, and somebody says, look, we just, we just had a very talented young lady leave this position because she wanted to work from home.

[00:11:05] And we’re, we’re, we’re shifting back into our old normal, and, and that, that didn’t appeal to her. That’s why this job is open. Well, you just got a really good answer and now you can judge. Well, wait, I was going to ask later in the interview, if I could work from home and now I just got the answer to that.

[00:11:24] So now I’m much more informed than I would have been otherwise. Right. So even if you don’t get the answer you want to hear to the, why is this job open question, then it informs every decision you need to make from this moment on. And it’s, it’s it puts you as the interviewee and it just a powerful.

[00:11:43] Mark Anthony Dyson: Sure. And a good answer is good, an honest answer. Isn’t always going to be the one that you want to hear. And in fact, sometimes it is even better to say, well, they told me the truth about it, and I’ve heard from other people that this is true, but they seemed it that informs my next question is, well, is this going to be permanent or are you going to be open to having people work from home or at least a hybrid?

[00:12:16] What, what does the future look like? We don’t have to accept every single answer as the single only answer. We can ask other questions that will mitigate what we really need to hear and what we ultimately want to hear. And that may lend to big, a good culture, because you’ve been honest, not just giving a standard line.

[00:12:40] Mark S Babbitt: Well, and the expectations have been set now, right?

[00:12:43] You know exactly where you stand and you, and you’re making the decisions based on the facts, not, not what it says on their about us page or the careers page or in the job description. You’re making life-altering decisions based on real data. And that’s, you can ask for anything,

[00:13:03] Mark Anthony Dyson: Right. So what are some of the other subplots that may be relevant in this time that we can expect from them?

[00:13:11] Mark S Babbitt: One of the things that we do and I, and we realize it’s risky given that I am. And so is my coauthor, an old white guy is we, we call today’s business leaders out on the carpet and we say they are afflicted with boomer male syndrome, and that they’re leading how they led in 1979.

[00:13:36] And, and the world isn’t like that anymore. Diversity matters, inclusion matters, equity matters, pay equity matters different colors and genders in the boardroom matters. And, and we can’t build a good comes the first culture without that. It so fundamentally foundationally, we challenge today’s business leaders to look around them.

[00:14:04] And to say, “I am I surrounded by other old white guys? Am I, am I afflicted with boomer male syndrome or BMS? Am I part of the problem?” I mean, leaders, leaders you’ve been in this business long time leaders think they’re the answer. Well, what if the leaders are the problem? And our contention in the book is that those suffering from BMS are just a distinct part of the problem.

[00:14:32] And we know it’s going to ruffle some feathers, but we’re never going to get to the building to the co-creation of good cultures. If, if we don’t come out and talk about the stuff that matters and diversity matters, equity matters, inclusion matters. And, and so we start the book that way. We hope we do make people feel uncomfortable because that’s going to help us start some tough, but meaningful conversations.

[00:15:01] Mark Anthony Dyson: And one of the things I think is S an estimated in being an older black guy, having lived that life for all of my life, as many times that people don’t realize the ghosts that are in the past of those folks because that’s what they automatically go to when they’re hedging and they’re being hesitant is that they would have to confront those ghosts from the past.

[00:15:25] And those ghosts are coming in many different forms, even have parents and grandparents, that is something against the values that they were taught. So, therefore, Instead of telling you that they’re going to say, no, we can’t do this right now. Or we need more data or we need more time or more people, oh, we need more people to agree with us.

[00:15:52] We need the same, our competitors to do the same before do before us before we start to do it. And it’s like so much for being business and being a leader in that respect. Because sometimes, as a leader, you do the things that are uncomfortable because you’re asking people to do the uncomfortable every day.

[00:16:13] Mark S Babbitt: Well, I’ll tell you in, in research for the book, we took a poll and it wasn’t a scientific call it less than a couple of hundred people. So, take that for what it’s worth. But we asked people to self-identify based on race and gender. And I will tell you that when we asked the question, does my company act with integrity?

[00:16:37] About 44% of the white people said yes. And about 74% of the leaders said, yes, the numbers were half of that for, for non-white people and, and half that for females. And so not only are we not taking on those ghosts, not only are we but are also we left leaving the past unresolved, we’re hiding from the present.

[00:17:08] We, don’t want to face reality. I mean, and the data shows that it’s like the other funny thing is if we, and we knew that going into the question, if we asked 20 people for their definition of integrity within the corporate investor, We get 19 different answers, and that’s within the book.

[00:17:28] That’s why we’re asking people leaders to not only take a look within but, but then to start actually defining what their values are and not just saying, oh, well, one of our values is integrity. Well, what does that mean? Because if we’re getting 19 different answers to the define integrity question, probably pretty important to define what that means within these walls.

[00:17:52] Right? We don’t want leaders to throw another poster on the wall saying, well, here’s our mission, and here are our values. We want them to live those values. We want them to define them and, and then align their company to them. And, and only then can we really get to the bigger issues?

[00:18:12] They’re not just playing in the world at work, but society in general that only then can we really put good first.

[00:18:25] Mark Anthony Dyson: There are unresolved issues in the past. They only resort, many of them rowing a resort to one thing. And as that’s the forced-to-past on the present, it is similar to putting new wine in old wineskins.

[00:18:41] So to speak, it only is going to have disastrous and it has been disastrous for those companies. And just like my last guests had talked about is that, if you’re still asking for data the conversation’s already over because I think we had the data, we had the eye test there are enough Pigeons carrying messages stating that, that this way of doing business, it’s not profitable. There’s no way to reconcile the relationships that have been burnt because of it. Only, but say that, Hey, it’s just time to start something new and start doing something that’s really going to cost you something. Cause that’s whenever big companies or companies and period, they don’t want to apply something.

[00:19:33] They want to throw money at it and think that that’s going to resolve it. And unfortunately, that doesn’t work. We know that doesn’t work with the homeless. Right. I gave at the office, right in front of you, the person’s suffering and that doesn’t solve anything.

[00:19:48] Mark S Babbitt: Well, not only mark, do we want to throw money at the problem and by the way, HR has been guilty of this for decades, right. We don’t actually fix our diversity problem. We just, we just start yet another program that that’s going to take on the issue. Right. It doesn’t do anything, but it makes us look good. Right. And right. And so we invest in this program.

[00:20:09] We don’t, we don’t just invest money though. We, we invest our influence when a CEO gets up in front of the company and says declares from his soapbox, that from now on diversity matters. But then the next day, something that shows that that’s not really true happens, then that big speech is now just a podium of lies.

[00:20:35] And it didn’t, it didn’t help us get to the truth. Right. It was passionate, was powerful, maybe influential, but it’s only influential and tells the next instance of. If something bad happening is tolerated and, with the other, the other, the other part of that too, can be true. Also, mark, if we say, if that, if that CEO gets up and says zero-tolerance policy starting right now, right.

[00:21:06] And how many times have you heard that speech the next morning? Somebody displays a behavior that is counter to the speech that was given yesterday. Well, if that person has walked out the door right now, right now, like, no, we just said yesterday that we were not tolerating disrespectful behavior of any kind in this company you’ve been warned by HR four times already.

[00:21:30] You heard this speech yesterday, this is your last day. This is your last minute at this company. And they’re walked out now, people from, from the most veteran employees to the newest intern, now they look at that and go. Wow, that, that now that was powerful. Your words are powerful, but the action that I just witnessed or heard about that’s culture-changing and that’s the kind of change the sustainable, that’s the kind of change that’s real. It isn’t just the proverbial lip service it’s no, he, he meant it. She meant it. We’re, we’re changing, starting right now.

[00:22:08] Mark Anthony Dyson: And that’s what I mean by and that example. Perfect. What I mean by it’s going to cost you something it’s going to cost you. Maybe people who you consider that were good workers.

[00:22:21] Who do bad things and say bad things to people and the, and you’re risking that it’s really not a risk. It’s really, it has really leverage in the long-term because you can get somebody who will actually do good and come in to replace that person. But ultimately people don’t because they’re, they get sentimental and they think, well, he really didn’t mean it.

[00:22:48] And they didn’t mean it. We didn’t mean it. And you know, we can name plenty of companies that do that on a regular basis. Even from the outlet on a larger scale in excusing the behavior, that’s contrary to what they’re supposed to be standing for. And unfortunately, they let their guards down and let

[00:23:10] Mark S Babbitt:

[00:23:10] Well, that’s, that’s where the lack of accountability kills us, Mark, and if, if you say something, but then don’t back it up. You’re not holding yourself accountable. If, if a leader says something and then you get that, oh, he didn’t mean it. Right. He didn’t mean to touch her. He didn’t mean to make her feel uncomfortable. That’s just the way he’s a physical guy, right?

[00:23:38] Then, then you’re, you’re just enabling, you’re tolerating that behavior that makes people feel uncomfortable. And, and in the process, you’re not building a great culture. You’re actually tearing it down. If one of our values is psychological safety, right? We, we want people to know they are safe here physically and emotionally.

[00:24:00] We, we want this to be a safe place to talk and to work and to function and to grow. And then you have somebody that’s, that’s not enabling that value, not, not, not demonstrating the behaviors that would show us that value is important to him or to her and in this reported. And then nothing happens about that.

[00:24:25] Well, now you’re tolerating those behaviors. You’re setting a standard, you’re setting a precedent that says what we say, we care about that, but clearly, we don’t. Right.

[00:24:36] Mark Anthony Dyson: And even if you take a long extended time to do it, what does that say to your peers that you take into?

[00:24:44] Mark S Babbitt: Yeah, you’re too late.

[00:24:45]It used to be my dad. You and I’ve talked about this mark. My dad ran lumber mills in small towns in Oregon when I was a kid and we moved 14 different times before he went to high school. One of the things I, I learned from him just is, is he would take action, like right.

[00:25:03] If somebody was being disrespectful, disrespecting another employee disrespecting based on rank disrespecting the company, that person was walked out the door right now. And somehow we got away from that. Somehow we all, and now we got to send them to HR. Well, there it goes six more months of tolerating that behavior while we, while we retrain it.

[00:25:27] Yes. There are examples where we want to mentor somebody. We want to redirect behaviors, right. But that has to happen in a week, not a year that that’s happened in six days, not six months. And, and you’re absolutely right by not taking action. We were showing that at least for now, for the foreseeable future, That person we’re not going to hold him accountable.

[00:25:55] We’re not, we’re not, we’re not gonna make her responsible for the word she used at that meeting. We’re gonna let her say, well, I was just having a bad day. I’m not really like that. Well, you’ve not really been like that, like 12 times in the last two months. So maybe you are really like that.

[00:26:13] And maybe we, we need to find a different culture for you. And these are the kinds of things that, that, as you said, that the carrier pigeons are distracting all around us. The signals are all around us. The messages are circles and circles and we’re, we’re just not paying attention to it. And it, and by the way, it’s not just the leaders.

[00:26:34] It’s also, candidates. How many times have we seen here comes the job offer? And boy, I really got to pay my bills are I really want to get my own place again. And it’s been a long time since I got, since COVID hit and I lost my job and, and we see those shiny pennies, but we didn’t.

[00:26:51] We don’t stare at those carrier pitches looking right up at us, like going, don’t do this, don’t do it. We’re not, we’re not, we’re not aware of enough of the impact of bad company culture has on us psychologically. It’s, it can, it can tear us down. And there are literally millions of stories of people that were very good at what they do.

[00:27:14] And at one time really liked the company that they’re working for, but it’s only been three years now and they can’t wait to leave. They can’t wait to leave. Right. And now the pandemic has given them the excuse they need right now. And that’s why we have this max us employees. And that’s why so many jobs are opening.

[00:27:33] Mark Anthony Dyson: They’re not just looking at what employers have said. They’re looking at what they have done. And the history tells everything that the needs know, and this informative enough for them to, to make a decision that I’d rather wait and stretch out my budget than to be miserable for a long time to come.

[00:27:54] So people are making that the book is Good Comes First. We’re looking at a late September, early October release. Mark, any other parting words that you have before we wrap it

[00:28:06] Mark S Babbitt: I’m going to say the same thing your last guest said, which I thought was prophetic. Just keep doing what you’re doing. And since you and I went down and started down this path, there’s been literally thousands of, of people that have just come and gone.

[00:28:19] That, that, that hasn’t been there for, for people who need the help you give. So I want to thank you for being there and I want to implore you just to keep it up.

[00:28:28] Mark Anthony Dyson: Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Coming from you. That is an honor and a privilege and think the rest of you, I’m gonna sign off peace in the valley of love.

[00:28:36] Get the book. Good comes first. So thank you, Mark Babbitt, follow him on LinkedIn and Twitter. Wherever else you can. And also visit his platforms you turn and a work IQ. Thank you very much. You all have a good day, mark. Thank you.

About Mark Anthony Dyson

I am the "The Voice of Job Seekers!" I offer compassionate career and job search advice as I hack and re-imagine the job search process. You need to be "the prescription to an employer's job description." You must be solution-oriented and work in positions in companies where you are the remedy. Your job search must be a lifestyle, and your career must be in front of you constantly. You can no longer shed your aspirations at the change seasons. There are strengths you have that need constant use and development. Be sure you sign up to download my E-Book, "421 Modern Job Search Tips 2021!" You can find my career advice and work in media outlets such as Forbes, Inc., Fast Company, Harvard Business Review, Glassdoor, and many other outlets.

by Mark Anthony Dyson

Good Comes First with Mark S. Babbitt

Podcast: Play in new window | Download | Embed

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | RSS

Mark Babbitt and his coauthor Chris Edmonds wrote their latest book, Good Comes First, to challenge companies to lead by doing what’s right for employees and not the status quo. You want to find a company that practices “good” ahead of the agenda as a job seeker, right? Mark is my featured guest on today’s show.

And I share an episode of “#JobSeekerNation” and my co-host, Jack Kelly, and our guest, Nickquolette Barrett. We discuss the things we learned about employers and workers since the beginning of the pandemic.

Included in this episode is a short clip of another podcast and web show where I was a guest called “Who Ya Know – Job Networking Show.” A big thanks to Trevor Houston, Foster Williams, and Mark Elder for hosting my appearance and asking great questions.

You are more than welcome to join the discussion. Here are three ways you can:

– Call and leave a voicemail at 708-365-9822, or text your comments to the same number

– Go to TheVoiceofJobSeekers.com, press the “Send Voicemail” button on the right side of your screen and leave a message

– Send email feedback to [email protected]

More about Mark:

Mark Babbit, CEO of YouTern and President of WorkIQ, says you have an opportunity to find work you care about. Mark has been on the podcast several times over the years. He is constantly working on making the workplace better for everyone. He has been featured in Forbes and The Wall Street Journal, and many other news outlets.

Conversation highlights:

Company cultures haven’t changed. Mark and Chris became more frustrated that we were sending people out into the job market only to have them become disappointed and frustrated and, and they couldn’t find the right culture for them.
People are leaving good jobs because they’re not good for them or their souls or their values.
It’s good for job candidates to ask, “Why is this position open?” Companies often are not honest about their answer so the candidate can decide what’s best for them.
A quote from our conversation, “One of the things that we do and I, and we realize it’s risky given that I am. And so is my coauthor, an old white guy is we, we call today’s business leaders out on the carpet, and we say they are afflicted with “Boomer Male Syndrome (BMS), and that they’re leading how they led in 1979.”
Mark says that leaders need to start defining what their values are and not just saying, “…oh, well, one of our values is integrity.” Well, what does that mean? They’re 19 different answers to the define integrity question. Probably pretty important to define what that means.
He talks about how Human Resources hasn’t practiced or enforced diversity, inclusion, and equity. He says that “…HR has been guilty of this for decades. We don’t fix our diversity problem. We start yet another program that’s going to take on the issue. It doesn’t do anything, but it makes us look good.”

About Mark Anthony Dyson

by Mark Anthony Dyson

What Will The Future of Work Look Like with Jack Kelly (Transcript)

Although Jack and I regularly banter about the state of job search regularly on our live stream show, “#JobSeekerNation,” I wanted him to talk about his perspective on the future of work. You can find the podcast recording here or wherever you download podcasts. You can also catch the video of our entire conversation here.

Enjoy the transcript of our conversation.

Mark: And so I’m going to bring on my friend, Jack Kelly

I think everybody’s bringing them whole selves to work and to whatever they’re doing, whether they like it or not.

I think one of the things that we can talk about a little bit is how the job search is going to look in the future and how it’s going to be different for everybody because now people have to consider not just where they’re working with, but who they’re working for.

How is a big deal, but in your view, I know you’ve written a lot about, and I’ve been talking a lot about, on your channels about what things are going to look like. So we only have a half hour here and you, and I could talk for hours, which we do anyway.

Jack: I like how your preferences. We only have a half hour,

Mark: I think one of the bridges to this discussion is how people are going to attack the job search and what people are going to consider. So in your view w what is going to be the difference between two years ago, and now, as far as people going forward and looking at going into a job search, whether they’ve been present, or they have been present in this particular environment,

Jack: see, it’s interesting, you know like we’re saying two years, I’m lucky this way is that if we had this conversation three weeks ago, my answers would be different than it is now, like three weeks ago.

And I’ve been very positive. I was even kind of referring to everything. Hey, post pandemic, here’s where we are, you know, I was already kind of factory and yeah, we still get it. You know, COVID-related stuff for the probably next few years, but I figured like the, you know, the hard part was over and we deal with it just like we deal with other things.

Now with this new Delta variant, it’s a wild card. We’re dealt this wild card. And what do mean by a wild card? Is this now? I don’t know. You know, it could be really bad then we could get strain after strain. It could just dissipate, but because of the fear of it, the unknown, it’s gonna make it harder for the job search because what’s going to happen, I think, is that companies we’re seeing it now, apple, Facebook, Twitter, Google, Microsoft are all pushing back when they were going to start, you know, they were saying, all right, we’re going to go September.

Which makes sense. You know, kids go back to school in September. Now it’s October now. It’s like, Hey, we’re monitoring the situation I was writing about today with JP Morgan. Right? They’re starting to rethink. And JP Morgan, along with the wall street, banks have been very, you know, strict and say, we want people back in the office, butts in chairs, get in here.

Now you don’t know it may, they may not have a choice. They may have to say go back home. So it’s hard. So the search, all of a sudden it’s, it’s, it’s up in the air a little bit. It’s not as certain as it was, or at least what I thought it was three weeks.

Mark: Yeah, I imagine the things won’t ever be the same. Within a year’s time, I put a couple of years because you know, people, I think we’re going to stage where people are fed up more and they’ve been fed up with the with employers kind of not knowing You know where they’re going from one moment to the next.

They’re fed up and they’re tired of being misdirected. I mean, really the old school. I mean, we got to consider the source where some of them, sometimes, because you mentioned one name and it tends to I think of all the other things that they have fumbled in and underestimating their workers and how they treated the employees.

I’m not saying they were terrible. I’m just saying there are times when, they say, well, it’s going to be this way. And then it’s like, well, I don’t know. And really when you got other companies that said, there’s going to be this way for the next year, like we saw Microsoft, we saw Google said in Twitter, say, this is the way it’s going to be the, for the next two years, this is the way it’s going to be for a while.

And you know, the one who’s the most agile is going to win the day. And when the talent.

Jack: I think that’s, what’s going to really boil down to

Jack: and that makes it tougher for the companies because they’re going to have to figure out, okay, let’s say right now, New York city for, let’s say the banks in New York city.

Now you have, you know, Cuomo and you know, the governor, Andrew Cuomo and Mayor, Bill De Blasio, basically saying, Hey, if you will go to restaurants, you have to show proof of having your vaccines. You have to wear a mask. So that alone makes people question, do I want to go into the city? Maybe I don’t want to go into the city.

Do I want to go back to work? If I have to work, is it doesn’t sound very nice and fun? And it just sounds very awful. And, and then the companies have to make a decision. They may have to say, Hey, we wanted people to come back to the office, but we’re going to get a revolt on our hands. So that, so that maybe we have to say go back, you know, calm.

If someone wants to come in, they could come in. So, and then it may change again. It may turn out that it fizzles out. And then they might bring everyone in. So it’s going to be this weird vibe. And what, what troubles me Mark is I think it’s going to hurt people in the job search because w with when there’s uncertainty.

Companies tend not to hire. They tend to kick it down the road. They tend to hold off. They tend to kind of say, Hmm, let’s interview. But listen to view some more because it’s not a word

Mark: They tend to hold on to tradition. This is the way we do it. This is the way we’ve done it in the past.

And this is the way we’re going to do it now. And you know, there’s a fire in the building. So you know, the one again, you know, you’ve got to prove to a job seeker to the candidate, into your employees, that you can be agile and it not it and you not, or the employees not be the ones to blame for it.

Jack: I think it’s going to be on both sides because then, you know, people who are looking for your job, workers also have to figure out what do I do? You know, do I suck it up and go into Manhattan and worry about maybe catching something because I, I have to do my job and I don’t want to get fired.

Do you say I’m just going to quit with the great resignation? Do you just bide your time? So from the employee job seeker, you have to kind of keep monitoring the situation. I think the company is going to have to keep minders situation, which doesn’t make it easy because a lot of people let’s say a lot of, a lot of people may just opt out and say, I’m just going to hang tight.

Just like they did dinner pandemic. Let me just, just wait it out. But then, and this is why it gets so weird. Cause then it could be good for other job seekers because then as a lot of people pull out, if there are these hard to fill jobs and there are less people and you’re in the market, you have a better shot of getting it.

So, yeah, I think as you’re saying, the watchwords are going to be just being real nimble, right. Being really nimble to keep adjusting. To how things are playing out.

Mark: So your take of the possibility of September and October, that might be another mass Exodus, because the way that companies are anticipating what may happen with the Delta via variant and all these other factors that might be coming in,

Jack: See, I think it’s gonna depend.

So let’s say, you know, we go to the end of August and there are still concerns about the Delta virus. You know, you have mask mandates across the country and so on. It’s not going to be easy for people to quit their jobs because they’re going to be worried if I quit my job, am I going to find another one?

So they, you might not see that same great resume. Alternatively, if companies are forcing you to go back to where you are, it could be whether investment bank or it could be a restaurant or bar. Certain people may say, you know what, I’m just going to, you know, I’m going to quit because my health is more important than what I’m making as a waiter or waitress.

Mark: Our company’s losing focus by mandating a hybrid workplace?

Jack: You have to because think about it, let’s say you and I are responsible for a hybrid. And you talked about, you know, companies with tens of thousands of people, there’s so much to do. Sure. So we all set it up for hybrid. Now we don’t know.

So now we got set up for maybe or mode, but then we gotta be prepared to come back. So I imagine we put so much time and effort into that, that we don’t have enough time to look at new candidates who are interviewing. Right. So that’s where I see things getting bottlenecked for a while.

Mark: Are companies going to have to fight tooth and nail pretty much to have it their way, or will they actually get some kind of emotional intelligence as a whole.

And start to say, Hey, you know, we got to put these implants. If a, because very rarely I hear people. If companies say, if a can’t happen, then we’ll do B, then we’ll do C I rarely see that. I don’t know if you see anything different.

Jack: See, you know, to me right now, it’s a little bit different in the sense that a year ago it was clean.

You know, we’re in a pandemic, this is really bad. We’re not going to bring people in because of the obvious reasons. Now it’s, you know, people like, well, is it really that bad? Is it not that bad? Could it get worse? So there’s so much now I think there’s more uncertainty like during the pandemic, ironically, there was more certainty.

Yeah. This is bad, you know, you know, this is really, you know, problematic. Yeah. Right now it’s more of what are we do?

Mark: There’s so much uncertainty, but I think to a certain degree, you have to provide some people some comfort in knowing you can use a switch or better yet that you.

Aren’t going to see the future because that’s pretty much what most companies pride themselves on, or whether the smaller, big they’re saying this is the direction we’re going because we see it this way. And a lot of companies are building, or pretty much setting themselves up, or causing people to doubt because there’s more uncertainty amongst those who are making the decisions.

Then there are people because people have already made the decision. It, this happens, I’m going to be staying home, or this happens I’m going to go into the workplace no matter what, which might be fewer than the people who will actually stay home, but then know this you know, that those danger approaching, you know,

Jack: I like what you said about management.

And I think that is going to be. The defining characteristic of a company and they really articulate to their workforce what’s happening in a very empathetic, compassionate, and intelligent way, you know, not demanding, not being stern, but really just talking to people like they’re human beings and sharing.

And I would love it. If some of these companies would just really be upfront about it, say, Hey, listen, we’re not sure what to do.

Mark: That kind of candor means a whole lot more to somebody who is looking on and may be considering working for them than to say that we’re going to forge forward with this from now on without considering all the other intangibles that could actually happen.

Jack: Yeah. I think it’d be better if they kind of lay it out and say, Hey, you know, we love to say we have a crystal ball and this is what’s happening, but this is kind of, you know, moving quickly and there’s not enough. You know, intelligence right now to know what we can do a year from now. So let’s, so we’re going to all have to work together, as you said, to be flexible, adjust, be nimble.

And, and, and just again, to be really honest with folks and say, this might not be easy for a lot of people because it may disrupt it. You know, we may say, Hey, be at home, but then things change. We may ask you to come back. Right. You know it depends on how it plays out. So it’s going to be, I think it’s going to be an odd time, and this is all, if this Delta keeps going and other strains, if it fizzles out, then it’s a little different cause then maybe there’s more clarity of what to do.

So what I’m saying now is just based right here in this moment where, you know, New York let’s take New York as an example where you could say they’re putting in some really strict stuff and you know, and when you do that, it makes everybody else other cities and states saying, huh, maybe we should do the same thing.

And then before you know, it that’s the trend.

Mark: Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly, something you said recently on a thread on LinkedIn you said an energized team will vastly improve results at the company, creating a better atmosphere for both executives and workers. And I know we’re kind of good.

Yeah, I know it’s a sound. Excellent. I, but it, it brings to mind one, what an energized team is going to look like here in 2021 and with all that that’s going on.

Jack: Yeah. That’s a good question. It’s probably could be hard because after, you know, I would, I would suggest that a vast amount of people felt like, okay, we’re, we’re pretty much almost done who, and now all of a sudden you get hit again.

And it’s very hard to be energized where like now you’re worried. Okay. Are we going to be under lockdown again? What’s going to happen with my kid’s school. Now let’s say you have young kids. Does this mean that they’re not going to be in school if they’re not being in school? Can I do it, am I going to have to quit to take care of them again?

So yeah, it just throws a big monkey wrench into all the decision-making. Yeah. And, and then it’s hard if that happens to show up to work and be your best self and be all excited when it’s like, I got to worry about my kids and they’re wearing masks eight hours a day, or I got to worry about, you know, they’re going to their job and maybe something could happen too.

Them, well, maybe something to me or my partner or my spouse. So when that happens, when you have all those things hanging over your head, it’s too tough, you know, to come in, like, yes, let’s get working today. I can’t wait to work on my Excel spreadsheet, you know, is, it seems kind of meaningless.

Well, I think

Mark: people who are working from home or at least working remotely, somewhat, it could possibly have a domino effect that so-and-so’s affected with their children.

Hey, what about me and my kids? And it could possibly affect a whole team. And I think that the team can still remain energized at, they all understand each other’s challenges a whole lot more than the company, because you are the company now when you’re working in teams, right?

Jack: Yeah. The more I’m thinking about it, go back to what you said, mark.

I think it really is going to boil down to, you know, the senior level management. Cause you know, you know, the tone comes from the top. If, if, if they are clear in their message if they’re looking after people if they’re giving surveys to their employees, Hey, what do you think? What do you want? What would work well for you?

Do you want staggered hours? Do you want to stay at home? Do you want a hybrid? You know, and the ones who reach out and keep those communications open, then I think you could get a manager because now you’re feeling like we’re all on a mission together. You know, then you’re feeling, Hey, I feel empowered because they’re trusting me.

They’re asking my opinion. They want to know what I want to do. And then they’re going to allow me to do the way I want to do. Then maybe you could say it because then you, same way with a lot of people during the pandemic were putting in way more hours, they’re working longer hours. They’re working nights, they’re working weekends.

And partly because there was not much else to do, but they felt a sense of accomplishment. Like, okay, at least I’m doing something productive. So I think if the tone of the top is like saying, Hey, let’s work together. Let’s make this happen. It could energy energize people and you could achieve great things.

If management just takes this hands-off approach, and everybody is looking around at what do we do? What are we supposed to do? That’s going to be the worst. And I think you’ll see a divide between companies, the ones that have good leadership, they’ll probably do really well and prevail the ones who have really lackluster or don’t put the effort into it.

There’s this? don’t think we talked about it. There was a survey. This is really surprising from SHRM, right? And they, polled both remote workers and supervisors. And the supervisor said basically, and I’m not making this up. Cause it sounds so crazy that we sometimes forget about the remote workers and that remote workers are easily replaceable.

And this is what they, these are what they responded. This is how they feel. So imagine how the workers feel. Right. That’s what they’re saying. Cause that’s what they’re saying. Imagine what they’re doing or not.

Mark: Yeah. Well then, the workplace, I mean, being remote it takes away the emotional attachment to the employee.

Jack: That’s a good point. That’s interesting. You don’t see them. So you could beat, you might be a little bit more cold.

Mark: Here’s what what’s coming down to it. Unless you are constantly communicating with your team, it can definitely feel like, well, I don’t have this emotional attachment. I don’t see them all the time.

I don’t comment on their lunch. They can’t get idle, you know, there’s no exchange in office dynamic that you used to. So in that way, some people will say, well, that was like family, but remote no longer. Has that family except the one that they live with. So it totally changes the connection between the employer, the supervisor, and the employee this board minute to the point to where now I can see where they don’t have that emotional attachment or they’re not as sentimental. To the employee that they once were.

Jack: Yeah. I really like that. It’s just smart, the viewpoint is that if a manager isn’t trained and they’re not great at what they do and they’re thrown into it and their heart’s not into it. Yeah. You’re not going to know who mark and Jack are.

You know, you’re in Chicago, I’m in New Jersey. There may be, you know, in LA and they don’t really know us. They’re not taking the time to know it. So of course, we’re going to feel, they’re going to feel we’re dispensable and that they’ll forget about us. And you, and I probably spend all day long looking for new jobs.

So they’re cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Mark: I was just talking to my friend, Scott Behson about his book, about bringing the whole person to work kind of ideal. There’s an irony to it. As you bring your whole person to work, the less of a whole person you possibly be seen because the physicality is so used to the relationship being built on what rather somebody is right in front of us or not is going to make a big difference to how they’re going to be seen.

I’ve collaborated with people at least hundreds of times now you know, over the past 11 years or so there’s not much of a difference when you meet somebody in person after being alive. You’re not met in New Jersey or in New York, we were going to have lunch.

I wouldn’t expect anything different, but if you’re not used to it, you’re, you know, you have perception, you have things that come into play to where that dynamic may not be, is amicable as you would, as you as if you were working across from each other at the office.

Jack: It’s a gap that needs to close.

And, you know, in that same survey, it was saying that the remote workers kind of felt that they’re missing out. On the interactions they’re missing out on networking, meeting, new people. And so they were kind of say, they’re recognizing that as a trade-off, they have a better quality of life and a balance, but they realized their career might be hurting a little bit because the managers aren’t paying as much attention.

They are not networking. The boss, the big bosses don’t see them. So they kind of realize it’s they prefer working remote, but it’s not perfect because they feel like you said out of sight, out of mind.

Mark: It could be a little tough for people to really make that adjustment and to tell the difference between virtual and real life.

We’re really, there. Isn’t much of a difference. I mean, it’s just that you’re there and I’m here and we’re having this conversation. It wouldn’t be any different if we were together, I mean, or a physical in the room, there really isn’t much of a difference, but the mindset is, is this the biggest difference of it?

Jack: Yeah. It’s, it’s definitely, it’s so frustrating because to me, it seemed like we were going in such a good place. It seemed like, okay, we pretty much closed the door and the pandemic, not, you know, completely but enough that we could kind of live our lives. And then all of a sudden you hear this new thing and you’re like, All right.

What does that mean? But then it also raises the specter. Well, after Delta, is there going to be, I don’t know, Epsilon so-and-so and so on. Right. It’s like, oh my God, we’ll never, we’re like, whoa, whoa, who, who’s going to be the one to say, you know what, stop it. We just go back to our lives and that’s it. Or maybe you can.

And that’s, that’s where I think you get that challenge where I’m, I’m, I’m concerned that the job market could get clunky because with uncertainty, it’s easy for people just to say, I’m going to stay, but where I am, or I’m just going to collect unemployment and ride it out and companies and say, hey, let’s just wait.

Let’s wait. Let’s see what happens. Let’s wait some more. Wait, wait, wait some more. And. And that’s not that doesn’t bode well.

Mark: Doesn’t. And one of the shifts I think received as far as job seekers concerted and their job search. And I’ll have to say this, knowing that we’ve said it before, but it is no longer about the company as an entity anymore.

And looking at where you want to work, you got to also look at the team and the people with who you’re going to be interacting with. Sort of like we talked about last hour where you, you know who your boss will matter, who your teammates will matter. And that’s where you’ll need to try to get the insight and also get the Intel on what it’s like to work with them, remote on a team when, when everybody else is not looking,

Jack: I like that.

You know what that, that seems to be like hitting the nail on the head, because if you are looking for a new job in this kind of model, It definitely behooves you to find out who your boss is and naming when you’re interviewing to really ask what’s their style, like, what are you doing for remote workers?

You know, first of all, let’s say, can I work remote? And if I can, what systems do you have in place? What, what policies, what procedures, what controls, what tools, and this is not a time to be shy about it, because if you don’t get good answers, then you probably don’t want to work there. Because if you get a sense that they didn’t think it through right.

Then what do you think is going to happen? They’re not going to care too much, but the ones who thought it through care, the ones that say, okay, here’s what we do. We have a slack channel. We use Google Hangouts throughout the day. We do zoom calls every block at this time, you know, we have regular check-ins with the manager.

We have, you know, tech teams available. So let’s say if you’re having trouble with your computer, with what have you, you call this number, they’ll deal there. Then you’re like, wow. Okay. They really care. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: And then you want to meet the team if you were, you want to meet with them as a team.

I think because of the window to the team dynamic, if you meet with them as an individual, then you’re just. Okay. You get familiar with someone, they ask you questions, it’s how you are. But what you’re interested in how do they respond as a team? What is the philosophy? And then you’re able to look at the reactions of each person is the other person talks that give you a holistic view cause if they’re not cohesive as a team, you will see heads turn in different ways, eyes roll in different ways. And also may be times when they’re correcting each other to the point where it becomes not to correct to give the right information, but correct them too, because they don’t necessarily like their perspective.

And that just adds to the fact that you’ve got to do that kind of dig deeper thing now dig deeper because it’s important to you that that team vibe feels right, because you’re going to just be spending quite a bit of your day.

Jack: I like that a lot. And that’s something maybe else you also ask, you know, if let’s say you’re interviewing, Hey, is it okay if I sit down with his group and get a sense of everything you mentioned, but then also feel if I’m going, if I’m working remote by myself, Hey, now I’ve know these people.

So I have my core group that I can go to and brainstorm with and not feel so alone, and then just feel part of something. So that’s, that’s a good, that’s a good thing to ask. So to ask the nuts and bolts. Of what they’re doing for somebody who’s going to be remote, but then also to see, Hey, who are my peers?

Can I really get to know them so I can make sure I’m, I’m not on an island by myself. Right. And that goes to your initial question about how you can get people together and be enthused about it. Because now you’re like, Hey, I got my team, I got my posse, I got my group, I got my tribe, whatever you want to call it and say, Hey, this is awesome.

All right. I feel good. You know, I might be sitting by myself, but you know what, I know I can just hit the zoom call and Mark’s going to be on there. And that guy, Scott will be on there, you know, and you know, you know, Kyle and so forth.

Mark: And you know, just people will have to be a whole lot more thoughtful for them to leverage the opportunity they’re going to get interviewing.

I know we could talk more about it, but you know, right. Who’s online. So everybody knows Jack Kelley, founder of WeCruitr.io, check out his Forbes column, UC content 3, 4, 5 times a week. You’ll love it. And also catches future of work live stream that is every day now.