Workplace Archives - The Voice of Job Seekers

Find Happy At Work with Beverly Jones (Transcript)

This is the transcript to this week’s podcast episode. My guest is Beverly Jones, and her book, “Find Happy At Work” is available in most popular online bookstores.

Enjoy!

[00:00:00] Mark: Next we have glad to see my friend Beverly Jones here. And I’m trying to get your information up here on the, on the screen. But Beverly has graciously had me on her NPR podcast, Jazzed About Work three times and loved every single time I’ve been on it. She has a great new book. Find your happier work, victory ways to get unstuck past boredom and discover fulfillment coming out September 1st.

[00:00:32] Is that the correct date?

[00:00:34] Beverly: That’s right. It’s getting close. I’m getting excited because it’s been a long process on this one.

[00:00:40] Mark: You had to do this during the pandemic, right? I mean, you wrote a good part of it during the pandemic.

[00:00:48] Beverly: I did my proposal to the publisher and all of that way back in early 2019, but these things kind of take a while.

[00:00:56] And so I had been working on it seriously for a month when the pandemic hit, and it actually in many ways was a wonderful process because I think most frightening at the beginning. For many of us, we didn’t know what was going to happen. And there was so much uncertainty, but writing about how you can choose to be happy and how you can learn to be more comfortable with change.

[00:01:20] That was not a bad thing to be working on during the early days of the pandemic. I got to read lots of good stuff and it was not a bad process. The thing is I finished the book before the pandemic was even close to being finished. So then the next thing was wondering what else is going to happen.

[00:01:40] But I think it all holds up.

[00:01:41] Mark: I think that, you know, it’s good history in some sense, but in another sense, too, I think people are looking for happiness now. That’s the relevant part of it. I think people don’t want to go back to being unhappy and having to endure a lot of the work dynamic that they’re used to is that they didn’t like to begin with.

[00:02:09] This will help clear some of the clouds , so to speak in helping them to be more targeted and be more thoughtful and be much more intentional about where they want to work and who they want to work with.

[00:02:25] Beverly: I think you’re right. COVID experience has made people think about how life is short and we only have one and we don’t want to defer happiness forever.

[00:02:38] And that, that has made people even more aware that happiness isn’t something that you reach at the end of work. Happiness is your life. Happiness is how you get through every day and how you connect with people. But the interesting thing is, aside from people becoming aware that they don’t want to defer happiness.

[00:03:02] It’s not necessary to do for happiness. And in recent years, there’s been a, a lot of research about the relationship between success and happiness. When you and I were in school, mark people may have said, you know, if you work really hard and you’ll be successful, and then one day you can be happy.

[00:03:20] Well, it turns out that it doesn’t work like that. You know, research shows that happiness is kind of a positive attitude can be the foundation of success and that when you’re positive, you’re more creative. You get along better with people you’re more flexible. So really having a positive attitude is a starting point of moving towards success.

[00:03:46] You don’t have to wait until after you feel successful to give yourself the opportunity to, to enjoy life.

[00:03:53]

[00:03:53] Mark: To come back to that point because there is something really important. I think that’s relevant. I do want to talk a little bit about , you wrote a book, think like an entrepreneur act like a CEO.

[00:04:05] I believe that’s the title of it. And I know there’s a fundamental difference between both the books that you’ve written, but you know, this one is, again, without you even knowing that it was going to be timely because people are looking, being happy. Can people have both being happy is being able to think like an entrepreneur, because you take a lot of ownership and you take a lot of control of your career that way.

[00:04:37] And I think that’s where you’ll derive a lot of happiness, but also that there might be. A slight chasm is that you’re going to be looking at your employer a lot differently than before. And employers aren’t necessarily made to be your happy place .

[00:04:56] Beverly: Well, I think the two things work together and I’m glad you mentioned.

[00:05:02] That first book. When I was talking about thinking like an entrepreneur and acting like a CEO, I wasn’t necessarily talking about going out and starting a business. What I had noticed in my own career. And then certainly after I started coaching and lots of other people’s careers along the way is that it used to be that we have this idea that we would get a job and the job would take care of us.

[00:05:28] And I worked with lots of big organizations, myself and with people in big organizations. And there was the idea the guy got the job, they just have to do what they’re told and the company would take care of them or the government would take care of them. And it’s not like that.

[00:05:43] What happens in real life is that if you start a job, wherever it is, it’s really that you have. Created an opportunity to explore lots of options. And even if you’ve started a government job and you want to be there all your life, and there’s a chance that could happen every day, your work is a bundle of opportunities.

[00:06:10] And every day, if you look at them in an entrepreneurial sort of way and find ways to add value and find ways to connect with people, you’re going to create the possibility of, of success there, but also the possibility of of moving on if you want to. So that was a big part of the first one.

[00:06:28] These are the ways you can act like an entrepreneur and create a resilient career. And the next one kind of assumes those things. I think we’ve come further as a culture. Certainly as a collection of professionals. We know much more about how we have to take advantage of opportunities, but the next one says, it’s not just about how you behave at work.

[00:06:51] It’s how you manage yourself, how you create a relationship with work and how you manage your own head, your own attitude. So that one sort of follows the other.

[00:07:03] Mark: I think one of the things we’ve been talking about in the past two interviews and not always directly is people are going to dig a little bit deeper to find that happiness at the outset.

[00:07:16] First they’re going to dig into- my friend. And I just talked about a few minutes ago about how job seekers now they’re going to go dig into who they working with. Rather than what they’re working with, the who working with is going to matter a whole lot more. And, the team that they work with is gonna matter just as much as what they’re working with and what they’re working for, because that’s who they’re going to end up being interacting with on a regular basis as if you’re handling your career, as you was an entrepreneur strategic relationships are really key and you’re going to be with somebody for the next couple of years, you’re going to want to, you’re going to have to be a lot more strategic about who you work with.

[00:08:06] Does that make sense?

[00:08:08] Beverly: Yes, I absolutely agree with that, but with a caveat. We are recognizing, I think, through a psychologist research and, you know, just the, the modern culture that human beings are born to be connected with other human beings. You know, our our ancient ancestors who are hunter gatherers couldn’t survive by themselves.

[00:08:32] They had to be in groups. And so we evolved to have the skills, like noticing emotion and empathy and those kinds of things. We evolved to be able to connect with other people and everything that we do now in modern times kind of calls on those skills. And I think there’s much more recognition about the importance of knowing how to be part of a team and choosing theone, all the things you said.

[00:08:58] I agree with that. On the other hand people have tendency to blame other people, to blame the team, to not, get their feelings hurt. If there’s criticism to get angry, if things don’t go their way. And so the caveat is that again, it’s the entrepreneurial attitude. If you’re an entrepreneur and you make a product and the, the public, your customers, don’t like it doesn’t do any good to get mad at them.

[00:09:30] What you have to do is learn how to communicate, learn how to listen, learn about what needs to happen and how you can contribute. And I think it’s, it’s the same. You, the team is vitally important, but so is your commitment to communicate, to understand, to figure out how to make a contribution.

[00:09:48] Mark: With the pandemic in mind, knowing that the working relationships have changed a little bit And I understand you wrote the book before the pandemic has the hybrid of what you know, now, as opposed to what you knew back in 2019, is that reshaping your advice that you give to your clients now when they’re changing careers?

[00:10:12] Beverly: I think it just makes it more clear that the things we were speculating about a couple of years ago are happening more quickly than we thought. I did have a chance to go back and look at the book and it’s very tightly written book, but I had an opportunity to take out things that didn’t resonate and so forth.

[00:10:32] And I was kind of surprised there may be language in there that talks about going for the office when people are thinking nobody’s going to the office, I may have missed some things like that, but I think that the basic ideas. Absolutely the same that we want more agency over our career. We want to own our career.

[00:10:51] We want to operate our career so that it gives us maximum flexibility. So we have this huge network and we can make changes. We want to take responsibility and we want to grab the rewards that we really need. And that’s just not dollars. It’s a healthy lifestyle and it’s teamwork and all those other things.

[00:11:15] I think you and I may be chatted about years ago on our first podcast, they’re just more true than we even knew they were going to be.

[00:11:27] Mark: I don’t think that, you know, that the fundamental ideas have changed what we’re talking about.

[00:11:34] And a lot of what people are talking about with the logistics as far as where and how much, but I think the nature of people have not as not changed that if they feel they want to be somewhere where they will be the most productive and happiness is directly correlated to being productive.

[00:11:56] Beverly: Being productive and using your expertise and making a contribution to mission or values that are important to you. Those are really the fundamentals.

[00:12:11] Mark: Yes. And since you mentioned values, I think, and you could tell me if you agree or not, that values mean a whole lot more now and kind of are at the front and center because a lot of what’s being discussed and whether people are working home or at the office is about values because there’s childcare, there’s issues that I care about.

[00:12:35] There’s the dynamic of not having your child with two or three hours a day to go to work. All those things that people will be more interested in, how companies are going to respond to that now than ever. And, you know, they don’t feel like that company is at least being honest about the way that they’re going to go about.

[00:13:01] Somebody is going to get the sense that I’m not going to really be happy here. And that’s really, what’s going to matter the most to me.

[00:13:08] Beverly: I think that’s exactly right. But when I work with clients for some time, I’ve used a little tool that I called the engagement triangle. It’s basically a discussion, a tool to talking with people about what makes them happy at work.

[00:13:24] What would help them be more engaged to work? And to me, it feels like if you go through all of the research and just the things we notice, and that is that the three things that seem to be keys to, to being happy at work. It’s purpose, people, and performance are the three, but Purposes, just what you were talking about.

[00:13:45] It’s values, it’s the things that matter to you, which is the reason you’re working, whether it’s because you’ve always wanted to be a journalist or you’re wanting to send your kids to school, whatever it is, those values. And then what’s the mission of the organization. And how are these aligned and organization that you’re working for care about you and does it support all these things that alignment’s really important?

[00:14:09] Another one is, is the people, it’s your team, but it’s also the stakeholders who’s impacted by what you do. How are you going to connect with other people? All of the ways you connect with people. And then the, the finally a performance you just alluded to it’s can you be productive? Can you use your expertise?

[00:14:29] Can you learn? Can you grow? Is it, does this make sense? Is this a meaningful thing you’re doing? So those, those three things are. I kind of featured in the book there, a theme in the book. And I, I think that just talking to people who’ve been going through the thoughtfulness that the pandemic forced on us.

[00:14:49] They’re thinking about those three things, you know across the world.

[00:14:54] Mark: Now, I know a lot of your clients probably in recent years. You could tell me if this is true. How do you notice a difference between being that older workers have kind of taken a beating during this pandemic? Especially at the beginning forcing a lot of people to retire.

[00:15:14] Do you find that perhaps by the current climate, that there might be a resurgence in the way, not only that, the more older workers coming back to, into the workforce, but there might be a resurgence in the way that they look at a work these days?

[00:15:33] Beverly: I absolutely think so. A year ago, a little more than a year ago, it felt very grim..

[00:15:39] I knew so many people who were forced into retirement or who took a package that they didn’t really want, or they just lost their jobs who were just laid off there. There were just so many people, but at the time the older workers were the most in despair, many of them because of where they were in life, you know, they had kids or college or whatever worried that never get the same job again.

[00:16:04] But the fact of the matter is I think we’ve adjusted that yeah, people may not get the same job again, but there’s so many opportunities out there. Careers can be long and you can do a portfolio kind of career where you work a lot now, and maybe you’re going to work longer than you ever thought you would, but you’re going to have fun doing it.

[00:16:25] And you’re going to have other things in your portfolio. There’s so many opportunities opening up and remote work. Certainly is one surprise for older workers. They may not have thought about it. Now they’re opportunities to connect with jobs all over the country to do things they never dreamed that they could do, but it requires of course, being willing to change and to learn new things and all the things we have.

[00:16:51] We older workers have to, to manage more importantly.

[00:16:57] Mark: In many cases the values are mattering a whole lot more than ever. And, and that the skill part is being put on the shelf at least to some degree that the values are mattering and that they’re searching for the company or the individuals or the purpose and the mission instead of using those skills that they paid for back way back when.

[00:17:26] Beverly: Yeah, I think that’s often the case, but another part of it is that, that I see happening as people are figuring out. You know, the, maybe it was it was a law degree or a technical skill that you worked really hard and didn’t seem relevant anymore. Well, whatever it was you used to do, and you’re not doing now there’s knowledge, there’s expertise, there’s judgment there, communication skills, there are all kinds of things that were probably part of, what you were doing before.

[00:17:56] And so now I think people are starting to deconstruct the things they were good at and recognize that there would be new fields opening up. There are new fields opening up. And so there are ways to we apply what they already know. And also they have learning skills. There’s so many ways to get certifications, to get training, to go back to school or to learn new things without going back to school.

[00:18:21] And when you’ve had any kind of success, you’ve got learning skills and that’s really important.

[00:18:27] Mark: Are there any stories, maybe one particular from the book that you can recall that exemplifies that, or gives a best indicator of what is to come for older workers or maybe even those who might be in the midlife crisis part of this not the pandemic, but in their midlife crisis.

[00:18:47] And the way they’re looking in the way that they’ve changed a view of work?

[00:18:51] Beverly: Well, I. We’ll talk about one. That’s not in the book, but it involves talking about the book. So, you know, my past, Jazzed About Work and I was recruited to do that. Oh gosh, five years ago by W O U B, which is the public media operation, a big operation at Ohio university and an old friend had, had been a judge, had been a lawyer, had run the journalism school and he took over WOUB to kind of remake it and he wanted to do podcasts and lots of things.

[00:19:23] So he, he brought me in, he had a very distinguished career. I mean, he worked for the chief justice of the Supreme court and he was the youngest judge ever elected in Ohio and so forth and so forth and so forth. So he started doing great things WOUB and then finally it dawned on him. Everything was changing.

[00:19:45] And that it probably made sense for him as an, as an older employee to take a package and retire. And he had never thought about retirement. And so he came on in the series of podcasts and we talked about things that were in the book and we talked about unretirement and he ended up saying, you know what, now I’m excited.

[00:20:08] I suddenly realized there’s so many things I can do. I’m going to start a company to do this. I’m going to pursue another interest over here. And he has kind of through the pandemic created a whole new career. He’s doing virtual courses. He’s teaching people about dealing with the media people who are spread around the country.

[00:20:30] Cause he can do that. Now he’s, he’s teaching about media innovation, he’s doing different kinds of podcasts and recording and we kind of talked about it and a series of podcast in which he explained that he felt very anxious. He felt sad about leaving and now he’s doing so many interesting things.

[00:20:50] And he’s he’s in his seventies and he’s in a new world now and he’s having a wonderful time.

[00:20:57] Mark: Well, he’s doing what feels good. And sometimes you don’t discover that. And two, you are in a place where you have no other choice, right?

[00:21:06] Beverly: I think sometimes you, we get hooked on the, oh, I don’t know the sense of being experts and our rank and you know, that sense of security.

[00:21:17] And when the sense of security is pulled away, it’s very frightening, but we lose a whole lot of baggage at the same time and it can feel quite liberating to start over.

[00:21:26] Mark: I think in our generation we were orientated to emphasize obligation rather than mission values. What feels good, what makes me happy?

[00:21:40] And those are things that we got to create. They just don’t happen in your case, and manager’s case. And my case, we recreating things that make us happy and they don’t come along by themselves that everybody’s going to have to create a kind of a portfolio career, whether they like it or not, maybe not in their twenties and thirties, but you know, when it gets to the forties and fifties, the workplace looks at you different.

[00:22:06] If your employer looks at you different and your family starts to look at different, sometimes those don’t always line up.

[00:22:15] Beverly: That’s right. And so we used to think years ago, the word obligation is exactly the right one, that if you took a job, you were obligated to do what you were told you. We were very good about coming in on time and sticking to the letter that doesn’t work anymore anymore, and nobody wants it.

[00:22:37] Employers don’t want it. They want people who are creative and who can notice new things and who can innovate in the front lines. And we and giving up the sense of duty and obligation and thinking more about values and contribution and taking care of each other. I think everybody is gonna benefit from much more productive and fast moving organization.

[00:23:00] Mark: If there’s one takeaway for people who are reading or if there’s one or two takeaways what are, what seems to be the most resonant to you right now?

[00:23:13] Beverly: One takeaway that I really absolutely believe in that if you’re in a career crisis or you’re just playing stuck and bored, the go-to thing is always learn something new.

[00:23:29] That if you’re in a learning mode, you, everything changes. You become creative, you open opportunities, you’ve come more. Open-minded and you stop being bored. Learning can be exciting and interesting and can open your eyes to new opportunities. So when people are really feeling stuck learn something new.

[00:23:47] I think that’s a real important element of the book. And the other thing we talked about people I have, I have quite a few chapters on networking later in the book, and I know that some people cringe, they don’t even like the word networking, but get back to what we were saying earlier, networking is about connecting with other people and understanding and engaging.

[00:24:12] And if you are widely connected, particularly with a diverse group of people, it doesn’t mean you have to spend. In all of your time with them, but being open to a wide variety of people and being aware of them, you just have so much more rich opportunity. So it is always a starting place when people want to make a change is to kind of think about how they’re connecting with others.

[00:24:39] Mark: Sure, and I think the conversations you hit have in those times are the most enlightening and better Intel than any book or course that you could possibly take, especially if you have a passion for it. And you’re able to talk ad nauseum about it. I think that’s where our passion is good passion.

[00:24:57] Doesn’t lead you to the water though, necessarily, but it does at least gets your energy to the point to where you are able to adapt and to the new environment and the new information and how it will apply to you. Those things are invaluable, especially you.

[00:25:20] .And I know this because we do podcasts. We talked to a whole lot of people and having a half hour discussion with a couple of hundred people, changes your life and changes your perspective.

[00:25:34] Beverly: Particularly. If we study everything we can about him before the podcast it’s a wonderful way to expand our view of the world.

[00:25:43] Mark: Yes, your book I’m sure is going to make a major difference in a lot of people’s, lives. Find your happy at work, 50 ways to get unstuck, move past boredom and discover fulfillment ready to be out by the time this will air on the podcast. But those of you who are watching the live stream, you can go to Amazon and find the book and pre-order it.

[00:26:08] And and get a lot out of it. And again, jazzed about work and I’d be remiss not to also talk about that piece of work there. npr.org. You could just put that in the search engine, or you could just look it up on your podcast directory and find that. Informative every week. Thank you so much, Beverly for coming.

[00:26:30] Beverly: Well it’s always wonderful to talk with you and I always learn from you. I enjoy it so much.

About Mark Anthony Dyson

I am the "The Voice of Job Seekers!" I offer compassionate career and job search advice as I hack and re-imagine the job search process. You need to be "the prescription to an employer's job description." You must be solution-oriented and work in positions in companies where you are the remedy. Your job search must be a lifestyle, and your career must be in front of you constantly. You can no longer shed your aspirations at the change seasons. There are strengths you have that need constant use and development. Be sure you sign up to download my E-Book, "421 Modern Job Search Tips 2021!" You can find my career advice and work in media outlets such as Forbes, Inc., Fast Company, Harvard Business Review, Glassdoor, and many other outlets.

by Mark Anthony Dyson

Find Happy At Work with Beverly Jones

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Beverly Jones, host of the NPR podcast, “Jazzed About Work,” brings a wealth of knowledge about work that’s refreshing to me in our featured conversation today. I talked to her about her latest book, Find Happy at Work, and she adds excellent insight and perspective to creating room for work and happiness to co-exist.

I play a clip from my Friday live stream, “The Modern Job Search Checklist,” with my co-host, Damian Birkel, and our guest Loren Greiff, as we bantered about several job search topics. You can catch the show on my timelines on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook.

You are more than welcome to join the discussion. Here are three ways you can:

– Call and leave a voicemail at 708-365-9822, or text your comments to the same number

– Go to TheVoiceofJobSeekers.com, press the “Send Voicemail” button on the right side of your screen and leave a message

– Send email feedback to mark@thevoiceofjobseekers.com

More about Beverly:

Beverly Jones, host of the NPR podcast, “Jazzed About Work,” brings a wealth of knowledge about work that’s refreshing to me in our featured conversation today. I talked to her about her latest book, Find Happy at Work, and she adds excellent insight and perspective to creating room for work and happiness to co-exist.

Beverly is also an executive and coach who has appeared on Forbes, CNN, MarketWatch, and many other news outlets.

Highlights from our conversation:

Beverly said the COVID experience has made people think about how life is short, and we only have one— we don’t want to defer happiness forever.
There are ways to act like an entrepreneur and continue to build a resilient career.
Beverly said,” You know, our ancient ancestors who are hunter-gatherers couldn’t thrive by themselves. They had to be in groups. And so we evolved to have the skills, like noticing emotion and empathy and those kinds of things.”
“Fundamentals of a meaningful career: Being productive, using your expertise, and contributing to the mission or values that are important to you. Careers can be long, and you can do a portfolio kind of career where you work a lot now, and maybe you’re going to work longer than you ever thought you would, but you’re going to have fun doing it.”
There are many alternatives now to obtain new learning or skills without getting a degree.
We get a hooked sense of being experts and our rank and, you know, that sense of security”.
“You’re in a learning mode, and everything changes. You become creative, and more opportunities open.”

The next show will be published on Nov. 2. I will continue to publish articles on the blog and other places around the web.

About Mark Anthony Dyson

by Mark Anthony Dyson

Good Comes First with Mark S. Babbitt (Transcript)

This transcript was produced in conjunction with my conversation with Mark Babbitt. You can listen to the show or read this transcript of our recorded conversation. He refers to his Chris Edmonds, his co-author, as they refer to their mission in this book:

“And I, this book came about because me and my co-author became more and more frustrated that we were sending people out into the job market. Only to have them become disappointed and frustrated and, and they just couldn’t find the right, the right culture for them.”

[00:00:00] Mark Anthony Dyson: Next on the show is my man Mark Babbitt. We are long-time friends, at least. More than a decade at this particular point, right. We’ve worked together multiple times. So if we have a very intimate discussion, you guys don’t know what we’re talking about is because we have a lot of history, between talking about our families and what’s going on in our lives professionally.

[00:00:33] Mark S Babbitt: What’s going on in the job, search, how I’m doing very well. Let’s hope that well, let’s be intimate, but let’s also be relevant. How does that sound?

[00:00:39] Mark Anthony Dyson: Well, we don’t have to talk like it’s 2011. Indeed is now 2021. The jobs, the job search has changed even from two years ago. Which I think the thing.

[00:00:56] What we’re talking about here is your book, Good Comes First, going to be released here in another few weeks. I believe you’re actually, you’re closer to the October time, right? As opposed to the 1st of September. So we have a little time to put that. Would it be out that first week in October on podcasts, but people have access right now.

[00:01:21] And we are streaming in case you’re wondering what I’m doing streaming to LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook. And later on, it would be upon the, on my YouTube channel. Mark as I’ve written for YouTern back in the day. On several occasions and Mark has been on my podcast several occasions, and we worked in many other different settings as well.

[00:01:44] But all in all, this is the second book that you’ve worked on. If I’m not mistaken, I think there was a book in between there somewhere. I feel like I’m missing, but I think those are the two there’s, two that are on the market right now, where you were really involved. And when I first started the title, I was not surprised that that was you because I think that has been it there’s been a subtitle to everything that you’ve talked about.

[00:02:13] This is it. Good comes first.

[00:02:16] Mark S Babbitt: Well, first of all, thank you. That’s a huge compliment. Mark, you said that the job search has changed in the last two years, maybe even two months, let alone 10, 12 years since you and I’ve been hanging out and talking about this, but I’ll tell you what hasn’t changed.

[00:02:32] Company cultures haven’t changed. And, and I, this book came about because me and my co-author became more and more frustrated that we were sending people out into the job market. Only to have them become disappointed and frustrated and, and they just couldn’t find the right, the right culture for them. And, and so we, we took our experience and said, what, what if we, what if we built company cultures based on the doing of good and not just for your shareholders, but your, your employees and your candidates and, and your interns, and of course your customers and other stakeholders.

[00:03:14] And, and that’s, that’s what brought us to Good Comes First. We, especially, as we climb out of this newest wave of the pandemic want leaders to look at their cultures now and say, what can I, what can I do better? But even more important, perhaps we want job seekers and candidates to look at their careers and say, why would I go to work for a company?

[00:03:40] I know I’ve got to pay the bills, but why would I go to work for a company that I know, sorry, There I can, I can see on Glassdoor, they suck. I can see in the media, they suck. I don’t like the way they treat their customers and their employees on social media. But boy, I need to pay bills. Well, let me just take a step back and see, do I have, do I have any runway there?

[00:04:01] Can I really afford to, to, to hold up for a culture that, that actually fits me? My personality, my, my dreams, my goals my values, and that, so that’s why we wrote good comes first.

[00:04:15] Mark Anthony Dyson: I think as well, is that, that there’s also underlining. I mean, I talk about strategies all the time, but good is a strategy.

[00:04:27] But also happiness is a strategy. Is that people now underlying gear, they want, they want good jobs, but I think ultimately people want to be happy in a good job and they want to be happy with somebody that’s, considering the best treatment of them first, not the one when they fall that there’s going to be this net waiting for them and that’s going to be the good, and it shouldn’t be that way.

[00:05:01] It should be that that’s going to be first, rather than that being last

[00:05:06] Mark S Babbitt: well, mark, you’ve been talking about since I’ve known you what 2009 and, and happiness is a strategy. Good is a strategy. And, and I’ll tell you, you see what’s happening now. Your last guest touched on it. They’re there.

[00:05:24] People are leaving good jobs because they’re not good for them. They’re not good for their souls. They’re, they’re not good for their values. They’re being asked to tell him his truth or to fudge reports or to union and shops being asked to actually slow down their production over.

[00:05:44] We’re doing too much, right? Well, you can’t go home at the end of the day, thinking about that stuff and feeling good. You can’t go home and feel happy about that. And, and that’s what we’re trying to change in. And what we say to the book over and over again is we, we want to build a world where there’s good people doing good work for a good company to work for.

[00:06:06] And that’s our goal is we want happiness. We want good to become a strategy.

[00:06:14] Mark Anthony Dyson: They, there’s an anomaly in a good job. Because it pays and a company that’s not good because the way they treat is, is the thing that needs to be eliminated from our vocabulary and our mindset as well that we have to stick it out and survive.

[00:06:35] If you’re low like our fathers and grandfathers did

[00:06:39] Mark S Babbitt: well, there’s a big part of it, right? This whole generational precedent that, feels like an envelope falling on our head. There’s, there’s almost a guilt that comes with, well, my father was never happy at work.

[00:06:57] He just paid the bills. My mom, just did what she had to do to get by. We don’t, we aren’t supposed to enjoy work. My grandfather sure. Didn’t enjoy work. Well, what times are different. Now, the world is different now and, and people are, they’re voting with their feet. You look at, you look at some of these old school leaders that are insisting that their employees, after being given all this freedom and all this autonomy to work from home to make their own decisions is that their own hours.

[00:07:30] And now these old school leaders are mandating that we’re going to come back in the office and it’s going to go back to the way it used to be. It’s going to go back to normal what the old normal for 90% of the population, there was nothing rewarding about it, except the paycheck. And now, from Wall Street to Pennsylvania Avenue, to Silicon Valley, all these leaders are sticking their necks out and saying, no, none of that matters the last 18 months doesn’t matter.

[00:08:00] The Delta variant doesn’t matter. It’s time to get back to work either, either get back to work or, resign. People are resigning moving on in record numbers. We’ve, we’ve never seen a migration of talented workers, like, like we’re witnessing right now. They’re saying, no, I’m not going to work like that anymore.

[00:08:22] I liked being home for my kids. I like being home from my mom or my dad and providing elderly care. I like being home for my dog or my cat. Right. I liked having more balance and I’m not going to go back to the way it was. I’m not comfortable with that at all. I’m not going to spend three hours on the train just to work seven and a half hours.

[00:08:43] And I’m supposed to be happy about that. No, I’m not going to do that. And, and a good thing for employers because there’s good. There’s a whole bunch of really talented people on the market right now that weren’t just a couple of months ago before the JP Morgans and, and those kinds of companies said fine.

[00:09:00] You’re either going to come back to work. You don’t have a job.

[00:09:05] Mark Anthony Dyson: Well, I think people, when people dig deep, it’s interesting that the intelligence that you can get these days right now on LinkedIn and Glassdoor and all those to find out what the company’s M.O. And why a whole bunch of good people left. And when people see that people like them are leaving, they’re going, that’s a red flat out of flag automatically.

[00:09:27] So at what point leaves so they can contact the person and ask that question. Now, there just were not six degrees of separation anymore. We’re maybe one or two ties that we may be connected. So really the questions that job seekers can ask now are, how’s this company and please tell me the truth.

[00:09:50] And then we can look at the company and see where the red flags are. Ultimately, when we dig a little deeper, you can’t hide pebbles where they’re supposed to go.

[00:10:03] Mark S Babbitt: Well, I remember one of our first conversations mark, you and I talked about the best question a job seeker can ask in a job interview.

[00:10:12] Mark Anthony Dyson: Yes, we did that probably the last time we spoke

[00:10:15] Mark S Babbitt: And the answer to the, our answer that one of our main topics asked why, why is this job open? And, and people still don’t do that very often, unfortunately, but, and you don’t. And sometimes we talk about this, you don’t get an honest answer. You don’t get a direct answer.

[00:10:33] You don’t even get your sure. Don’t get the answer you want to hear. But if the interviewer hears that question and hems and Haws and tries to find just the right words to explain what’s going on, you don’t have to hear the answer now because they don’t want to tell you truth. Right. So on the other hand, let’s just say it, let’s just say it is on, on service, an unpleasant answer, and somebody says, look, we just, we just had a very talented young lady leave this position because she wanted to work from home.

[00:11:05] And we’re, we’re, we’re shifting back into our old normal, and, and that, that didn’t appeal to her. That’s why this job is open. Well, you just got a really good answer and now you can judge. Well, wait, I was going to ask later in the interview, if I could work from home and now I just got the answer to that.

[00:11:24] So now I’m much more informed than I would have been otherwise. Right. So even if you don’t get the answer you want to hear to the, why is this job open question, then it informs every decision you need to make from this moment on. And it’s, it’s it puts you as the interviewee and it just a powerful.

[00:11:43] Mark Anthony Dyson: Sure. And a good answer is good, an honest answer. Isn’t always going to be the one that you want to hear. And in fact, sometimes it is even better to say, well, they told me the truth about it, and I’ve heard from other people that this is true, but they seemed it that informs my next question is, well, is this going to be permanent or are you going to be open to having people work from home or at least a hybrid?

[00:12:16] What, what does the future look like? We don’t have to accept every single answer as the single only answer. We can ask other questions that will mitigate what we really need to hear and what we ultimately want to hear. And that may lend to big, a good culture, because you’ve been honest, not just giving a standard line.

[00:12:40] Mark S Babbitt: Well, and the expectations have been set now, right?

[00:12:43] You know exactly where you stand and you, and you’re making the decisions based on the facts, not, not what it says on their about us page or the careers page or in the job description. You’re making life-altering decisions based on real data. And that’s, you can ask for anything,

[00:13:03] Mark Anthony Dyson: Right. So what are some of the other subplots that may be relevant in this time that we can expect from them?

[00:13:11] Mark S Babbitt: One of the things that we do and I, and we realize it’s risky given that I am. And so is my coauthor, an old white guy is we, we call today’s business leaders out on the carpet and we say they are afflicted with boomer male syndrome, and that they’re leading how they led in 1979.

[00:13:36] And, and the world isn’t like that anymore. Diversity matters, inclusion matters, equity matters, pay equity matters different colors and genders in the boardroom matters. And, and we can’t build a good comes the first culture without that. It so fundamentally foundationally, we challenge today’s business leaders to look around them.

[00:14:04] And to say, “I am I surrounded by other old white guys? Am I, am I afflicted with boomer male syndrome or BMS? Am I part of the problem?” I mean, leaders, leaders you’ve been in this business long time leaders think they’re the answer. Well, what if the leaders are the problem? And our contention in the book is that those suffering from BMS are just a distinct part of the problem.

[00:14:32] And we know it’s going to ruffle some feathers, but we’re never going to get to the building to the co-creation of good cultures. If, if we don’t come out and talk about the stuff that matters and diversity matters, equity matters, inclusion matters. And, and so we start the book that way. We hope we do make people feel uncomfortable because that’s going to help us start some tough, but meaningful conversations.

[00:15:01] Mark Anthony Dyson: And one of the things I think is S an estimated in being an older black guy, having lived that life for all of my life, as many times that people don’t realize the ghosts that are in the past of those folks because that’s what they automatically go to when they’re hedging and they’re being hesitant is that they would have to confront those ghosts from the past.

[00:15:25] And those ghosts are coming in many different forms, even have parents and grandparents, that is something against the values that they were taught. So, therefore, Instead of telling you that they’re going to say, no, we can’t do this right now. Or we need more data or we need more time or more people, oh, we need more people to agree with us.

[00:15:52] We need the same, our competitors to do the same before do before us before we start to do it. And it’s like so much for being business and being a leader in that respect. Because sometimes, as a leader, you do the things that are uncomfortable because you’re asking people to do the uncomfortable every day.

[00:16:13] Mark S Babbitt: Well, I’ll tell you in, in research for the book, we took a poll and it wasn’t a scientific call it less than a couple of hundred people. So, take that for what it’s worth. But we asked people to self-identify based on race and gender. And I will tell you that when we asked the question, does my company act with integrity?

[00:16:37] About 44% of the white people said yes. And about 74% of the leaders said, yes, the numbers were half of that for, for non-white people and, and half that for females. And so not only are we not taking on those ghosts, not only are we but are also we left leaving the past unresolved, we’re hiding from the present.

[00:17:08] We, don’t want to face reality. I mean, and the data shows that it’s like the other funny thing is if we, and we knew that going into the question, if we asked 20 people for their definition of integrity within the corporate investor, We get 19 different answers, and that’s within the book.

[00:17:28] That’s why we’re asking people leaders to not only take a look within but, but then to start actually defining what their values are and not just saying, oh, well, one of our values is integrity. Well, what does that mean? Because if we’re getting 19 different answers to the define integrity question, probably pretty important to define what that means within these walls.

[00:17:52] Right? We don’t want leaders to throw another poster on the wall saying, well, here’s our mission, and here are our values. We want them to live those values. We want them to define them and, and then align their company to them. And, and only then can we really get to the bigger issues?

[00:18:12] They’re not just playing in the world at work, but society in general that only then can we really put good first.

[00:18:25] Mark Anthony Dyson: There are unresolved issues in the past. They only resort, many of them rowing a resort to one thing. And as that’s the forced-to-past on the present, it is similar to putting new wine in old wineskins.

[00:18:41] So to speak, it only is going to have disastrous and it has been disastrous for those companies. And just like my last guests had talked about is that, if you’re still asking for data the conversation’s already over because I think we had the data, we had the eye test there are enough Pigeons carrying messages stating that, that this way of doing business, it’s not profitable. There’s no way to reconcile the relationships that have been burnt because of it. Only, but say that, Hey, it’s just time to start something new and start doing something that’s really going to cost you something. Cause that’s whenever big companies or companies and period, they don’t want to apply something.

[00:19:33] They want to throw money at it and think that that’s going to resolve it. And unfortunately, that doesn’t work. We know that doesn’t work with the homeless. Right. I gave at the office, right in front of you, the person’s suffering and that doesn’t solve anything.

[00:19:48] Mark S Babbitt: Well, not only mark, do we want to throw money at the problem and by the way, HR has been guilty of this for decades, right. We don’t actually fix our diversity problem. We just, we just start yet another program that that’s going to take on the issue. Right. It doesn’t do anything, but it makes us look good. Right. And right. And so we invest in this program.

[00:20:09] We don’t, we don’t just invest money though. We, we invest our influence when a CEO gets up in front of the company and says declares from his soapbox, that from now on diversity matters. But then the next day, something that shows that that’s not really true happens, then that big speech is now just a podium of lies.

[00:20:35] And it didn’t, it didn’t help us get to the truth. Right. It was passionate, was powerful, maybe influential, but it’s only influential and tells the next instance of. If something bad happening is tolerated and, with the other, the other, the other part of that too, can be true. Also, mark, if we say, if that, if that CEO gets up and says zero-tolerance policy starting right now, right.

[00:21:06] And how many times have you heard that speech the next morning? Somebody displays a behavior that is counter to the speech that was given yesterday. Well, if that person has walked out the door right now, right now, like, no, we just said yesterday that we were not tolerating disrespectful behavior of any kind in this company you’ve been warned by HR four times already.

[00:21:30] You heard this speech yesterday, this is your last day. This is your last minute at this company. And they’re walked out now, people from, from the most veteran employees to the newest intern, now they look at that and go. Wow, that, that now that was powerful. Your words are powerful, but the action that I just witnessed or heard about that’s culture-changing and that’s the kind of change the sustainable, that’s the kind of change that’s real. It isn’t just the proverbial lip service it’s no, he, he meant it. She meant it. We’re, we’re changing, starting right now.

[00:22:08] Mark Anthony Dyson: And that’s what I mean by and that example. Perfect. What I mean by it’s going to cost you something it’s going to cost you. Maybe people who you consider that were good workers.

[00:22:21] Who do bad things and say bad things to people and the, and you’re risking that it’s really not a risk. It’s really, it has really leverage in the long-term because you can get somebody who will actually do good and come in to replace that person. But ultimately people don’t because they’re, they get sentimental and they think, well, he really didn’t mean it.

[00:22:48] And they didn’t mean it. We didn’t mean it. And you know, we can name plenty of companies that do that on a regular basis. Even from the outlet on a larger scale in excusing the behavior, that’s contrary to what they’re supposed to be standing for. And unfortunately, they let their guards down and let

[00:23:10] Mark S Babbitt:

[00:23:10] Well, that’s, that’s where the lack of accountability kills us, Mark, and if, if you say something, but then don’t back it up. You’re not holding yourself accountable. If, if a leader says something and then you get that, oh, he didn’t mean it. Right. He didn’t mean to touch her. He didn’t mean to make her feel uncomfortable. That’s just the way he’s a physical guy, right?

[00:23:38] Then, then you’re, you’re just enabling, you’re tolerating that behavior that makes people feel uncomfortable. And, and in the process, you’re not building a great culture. You’re actually tearing it down. If one of our values is psychological safety, right? We, we want people to know they are safe here physically and emotionally.

[00:24:00] We, we want this to be a safe place to talk and to work and to function and to grow. And then you have somebody that’s, that’s not enabling that value, not, not, not demonstrating the behaviors that would show us that value is important to him or to her and in this reported. And then nothing happens about that.

[00:24:25] Well, now you’re tolerating those behaviors. You’re setting a standard, you’re setting a precedent that says what we say, we care about that, but clearly, we don’t. Right.

[00:24:36] Mark Anthony Dyson: And even if you take a long extended time to do it, what does that say to your peers that you take into?

[00:24:44] Mark S Babbitt: Yeah, you’re too late.

[00:24:45]It used to be my dad. You and I’ve talked about this mark. My dad ran lumber mills in small towns in Oregon when I was a kid and we moved 14 different times before he went to high school. One of the things I, I learned from him just is, is he would take action, like right.

[00:25:03] If somebody was being disrespectful, disrespecting another employee disrespecting based on rank disrespecting the company, that person was walked out the door right now. And somehow we got away from that. Somehow we all, and now we got to send them to HR. Well, there it goes six more months of tolerating that behavior while we, while we retrain it.

[00:25:27] Yes. There are examples where we want to mentor somebody. We want to redirect behaviors, right. But that has to happen in a week, not a year that that’s happened in six days, not six months. And, and you’re absolutely right by not taking action. We were showing that at least for now, for the foreseeable future, That person we’re not going to hold him accountable.

[00:25:55] We’re not, we’re not, we’re not gonna make her responsible for the word she used at that meeting. We’re gonna let her say, well, I was just having a bad day. I’m not really like that. Well, you’ve not really been like that, like 12 times in the last two months. So maybe you are really like that.

[00:26:13] And maybe we, we need to find a different culture for you. And these are the kinds of things that, that, as you said, that the carrier pigeons are distracting all around us. The signals are all around us. The messages are circles and circles and we’re, we’re just not paying attention to it. And it, and by the way, it’s not just the leaders.

[00:26:34] It’s also, candidates. How many times have we seen here comes the job offer? And boy, I really got to pay my bills are I really want to get my own place again. And it’s been a long time since I got, since COVID hit and I lost my job and, and we see those shiny pennies, but we didn’t.

[00:26:51] We don’t stare at those carrier pitches looking right up at us, like going, don’t do this, don’t do it. We’re not, we’re not, we’re not aware of enough of the impact of bad company culture has on us psychologically. It’s, it can, it can tear us down. And there are literally millions of stories of people that were very good at what they do.

[00:27:14] And at one time really liked the company that they’re working for, but it’s only been three years now and they can’t wait to leave. They can’t wait to leave. Right. And now the pandemic has given them the excuse they need right now. And that’s why we have this max us employees. And that’s why so many jobs are opening.

[00:27:33] Mark Anthony Dyson: They’re not just looking at what employers have said. They’re looking at what they have done. And the history tells everything that the needs know, and this informative enough for them to, to make a decision that I’d rather wait and stretch out my budget than to be miserable for a long time to come.

[00:27:54] So people are making that the book is Good Comes First. We’re looking at a late September, early October release. Mark, any other parting words that you have before we wrap it

[00:28:06] Mark S Babbitt: I’m going to say the same thing your last guest said, which I thought was prophetic. Just keep doing what you’re doing. And since you and I went down and started down this path, there’s been literally thousands of, of people that have just come and gone.

[00:28:19] That, that, that hasn’t been there for, for people who need the help you give. So I want to thank you for being there and I want to implore you just to keep it up.

[00:28:28] Mark Anthony Dyson: Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Coming from you. That is an honor and a privilege and think the rest of you, I’m gonna sign off peace in the valley of love.

[00:28:36] Get the book. Good comes first. So thank you, Mark Babbitt, follow him on LinkedIn and Twitter. Wherever else you can. And also visit his platforms you turn and a work IQ. Thank you very much. You all have a good day, mark. Thank you.